Didn’t Jesus say essentially the same thing?


Posted on February 3, 2012, in Uncategorized. Bookmark the permalink. 35 Comments.

  1. Wow, I have missed this whole discourse.

    I just wrote and deleted a few paragraphs. Deleted because I’m tired of trying to justify the way that I believe.

    I don’t care anymore…. I really don’t give two shites about how you, you, you or they believe. We can never learn to live in harmony unless we do as Vagabond and Lennon spoke about. We must put away our preconceived notions of one another.

    Furthermore the Bible says that God is the Same, today, yesterday and forever. Right?

    The doctrine of the Trinity states that God and Jesus are ONE… Right ?

    Well then why did Jesus heal, love, cure, weep, and teach just to return from the Father to KILL ?

    Really ?????

    Just saying….

    VAGABOND, I LOVE YOU BRO !!!!!!!!!! without reservation !!!


    PS: you too Big D and Eric, and Kate and Sophie !!!!!!!!!

  2. Thanks kate and vagabond for your honest responses. Like vagabond, I’m not trying to convert anybody. I believe you both already know the way. Just trying to get insight about your posts.

    I already posted my response to the question at hand, quoting from the book of the Revelation. But that is Jesus in His original position of God and not man. God’s wrath has to come.

    Jesus the man? No, He NEVER had a reason to kill. In fact, He believed a proactive way to fight and overcome evil…
    *Do to others as you would have them do to you (thanks Vagabond)
    *If you enemy is hungry is hungry, feed him
    *Father forgive them. They don’t understand what they are doing
    *Turn the other cheek
    *Getting sued for your shirt, give him your coat also
    *Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you.

    And that’s exactly what Jesus did … reached out with respect and not prejudice to the Samaritans and Romans, the soldiers, tax collectors and whores, the religious, rich, poor, evil, good, even the very sick, diseased and demon possessed.

    Jesus was the embodiment of the words of the apostle Paul … “do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good”

    And He even PAID HIS TAXES!!!!

  3. exactly, dennis…totally agree. that was kind of the whole gist of my post. if we all treated each other how we wish to be treated (regardless of our differences, beliefs, disbeliefs), this universe would be a much better place. respect is what it’s about.

    it doesn’t require religion or a specific belief system to define that; it requires humanity.

    if we could get past using adjectives like black, white, christian, muslim, jew, hindu, buddhist, atheist, agnostic, humanist in describing a person…and just call that person a person… then we would realise the true meaning of respect.

    ah, if the world was only such…

  4. I mean, Eric, I don’t submit wholly to the God of the bible.

  5. I wish things didn’t have to be all or nothing all the time as it is in current day fundamental Christianity.

    Eric, mostly the jury’s still out on your question. But no, I don’t not submit wholly to the God of the bible although i do believe in God. I did at one time belong to the ranks of fundamental Christianity so I’m very familiar with the bible and workings of the church.

    The problem as I see it is that fundamental Christianity insists on its “rightness” and everyone else’s “wrongness” on biblical principles and dogma. Then the wall is up and there is no getting over it to talk about anything else.

    I cannot see where Jesus Christ ever condoned war and killing. It seems to me that he spoke about peace and passive resistance to injustice – among other things. But if those outside the circle try to talk about it, people just whip scriptures out of the bible – the old testament generally, to support war and mayhem – bible backed no less. In addition, fundamental Christians now put their bible brand on American politics and are trying to take it over and force everyone to adhere to biblical principles as they see them. So, in other words, instead of spreading the gospel, they are forcing their agenda/beliefs through politics. And while they are doing that, they are stepping on the backs of the poor. Ahem….that isn’t what Jesus talked about either.

    It makes me sick.

    And Dennis, yes, I think Jesus did essentially say the same thing as Gandhi.

  6. Hey Dennis. I enjoy and am learning from the dialogue, thoughts, and interaction. Glad that y’all are willing to share your opinions and not be afraid to engage and communicate.

  7. Unfortunately, things are usually a lot more complex than we want them to be, aren’t they vagabond? I wasn’t holding up Gandhi as a model to follow, anyway, but only his admirable sentiment not to kill anyone. That’s all. I’m sure he had as many faults as we all do, being a flawed human being and all. In any case, we should always consider the consequences of our actions, if for no other reason than to treat others the same way we wish to be treated. If we all do that, the Universe will be a better place. Respect.

  8. no prob, point taken. not tryin to “de”convert anyone…just responding to the other posters that were bickering about which level of violence is “allowed” by god or that we are willing to take part in. thus, my response to leave any god out of it. but like i said, to each his own, i respect that.

    in response to the origin of the topic at hand – ghandi accomplished a peaceful overthrow pretty well, underlined by his statement that there was no cause for which he was (directly) prepared to kill – i read something interesting recently that made me question my belief that ghandi was so “clean”:

    “After the critical weakening of the British Empire by the First World War, and most particularly after the notorious massacre of Indian protestors at the city of Amritsar in April 1919, it became apparent even to the then controllers of the subcontinent that rule from London would come to an end sooner rather than later. It was no longer a matter of “if” but of “when.” Had this not been the case, a campaign of peaceful disobedience would have stood no chance. Thus Mohandes K. Ghandi was in a sense pushing at an open door. There is no dishonor in that, but it is exactly his religious convictions that make his legacy a dubious rather than a saintly one. To state the matter shortly: he wanted India to revert to a village dominated and primitive “spiritual” society, he made power-sharing with Muslims much harder, and he was quite prepared to make hypocritical use of violence when he thought it might suit him.
    …Ghandi deserves credit for his criticism of the inhuman Hindu system of caste, whereby lower of humanity were condemned to an ostracism and contempt that was in some ways even more absolute and cruel than slavery. But just at the moment when what India most needed was a modern secular nationalist leader, it got a fakir and guru instead. The crux of this unwelcome realization came in 1941, when the Imperial Japanese Army had conquered Malaya and Burma and was on the frontiers of India itself. Believing (wrongly) that this spelled the end of the Raj, Ghandi chose this moment to boycott the political process and issue his notorious call for the British to “Quit India.” He added that they should leave it “To God or Anarchy,” which in the circumstances would have meant much the same thing. Those who naively credit Ghandi with a conscientious or consistent pacifism might wish to ask if this did not amount to letting the Japanese imperialists do his fighting for him.
    …Among the many bad consequences of the Ghandi/Congress decision to withdraw from negotiations was the opening it gave to Muslim league adherents to “stay on” in the state ministries which they controlled… Their insistence that independence take the form of mutilation and amputation, with western Punjab and eastern Bengal hacked away from the national body, became unstoppable. The hideous consequences endure to this day, with further Muslim-on-Muslim bloodbaths in Bangladesh in 1971, the rise of the aggressive Hindu nationalist party, and a confrontation in Kashmir that is still the likeliest provocation for a thermonuclear war.”

    –excerpt from God Is Not Great, pp. 182-184

  9. Dear vagabond and Eric:

    This was supposed to be a discussion about Gandhi believing in the peaceful, rather than violent overthrow of the current oppressive system – which he accomplished pretty well. Are we willing to kill for something – or Someone – we believe in? Or would we rather die? That’s the question in play. It’s not about whether God truly exists or not – that’s a very personal issue for anyone. Please let’s keep this in the bounds of the post, and not get caught up in trying to convert anyone. Thanks! (said with love for you both)

  10. i did, blindly and naively, for too many years. no, i don’t anymore. and i’ve never been more free. to each his own though, i can respect that, but for me it’s in the past.

  11. I have to ask this question before I respond to either statement …

    do you vagabond or you kate know and follow and wholly submit to the God of the Bible; the Father, Jesus Christ the Son and the Holy Spirit?

    To me, that is paramount. If you don’t, then I completely understand your comments.

  12. the world is already totally out of control.

    Keep in mind that a substantial percentage of wars are caused by religion, not the least of which is Christianity which is responsible for an estimated 17 million deaths through the centuries. What has that to do with God? Nothing – it has to do with man’s perception of God and his interpretation or rather, misinterpretation of whatever holy book his beliefs are based on.

    And with Christianity in particular, these days, believers take allegiance to a country, tie it in with the flag, bible and conservative propaganda, and ouila, they have their own version of Christianity…one of many.

    Eric, all religions believe they have the true God.

  13. so we need a god to ‘control’ the world? i was always taught that, according to the bible, god gave man free will to screw up the world as man pleases…or not to. whatever man chooses to do is therefore up to man…according to god. he decided himself, according to the bible, to not control the world…or us. he supposedly takes care of business after we’ve all blown ourselves up.

    now, that’s if one believes in the god of the bible. so basically, by believing in that god, the world’s already “out of control”…

    …whether he’s “out of the picture” or not.

    the world is what the world is. plain and simple. a god or a religion (speaking about all of them here) that we must obey, or else!, only turns us against each other. it’s in the history books of humanity. how many millions have been murdered in the name of ‘true’ gods and religions? now, THAT sounds totally out of control to me. and that’s with the true god, depending on who was doing the murdering, IN the picture!

    god and religion give man a sense of false security that his/her god, his/her belief, his/her religion is THE right one that will secure him/her a spot in heaven, zion, jannat, a new jerusalem, nirvana, etc.

    we’re here for a blip in time, as hundreds of millions of others were; as is our earth, our solar system, our galaxy… why are we so scared to die without there being an afterlife?

    let’s live for today. live as if there is no afterlife or god and do the best we can while we’re here. i’m just vagabond. the dream is over. thankfully. now, i’m truly “reborn.”

    “‘god’ is a concept by which we measure our pain.” – john lennon

  14. If we take the true God out of the picture we have nothing to live for. The world would be totally out of control!

  15. oops…i left out oil and other natural resources that the world wars over. but you get my point…

  16. how about we take god, allah, jehovah, buddha and the tens of thousands of other gods that people believe in and all of the man-made religions, “holy books” and children’s fairytales that follow, out of the picture?

    what are we left with?

    a world of people with nothing to fight, bicker, condemn eachother and war over.

    think about it.

  17. “Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but rather give place unto wrath: for it is written, ‘Vengeance is mine; I will repay’, saith the Lord.”
    Romans 12:19

    “For though we walk in the flesh, we do not war after the flesh: (For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal, but mighty through God to the pulling down of strong holds.”
    2 Cor. 10:3,4

    “But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you.”
    Matt. 5:44

    “Thou shalt not kill.”
    Ex. 20:13

  18. Right Eric, I agree with you. And I am waiting for Dennis to reply…

  19. Actually Dennis, there are 2 Biblical references that are worth looking at.

    Revelation 19:14-16 The armies of heaven were following him, riding on white horses and dressed in fine linen, white and clean. 15 Coming out of his mouth is a sharp sword with which to strike down the nations. “He will rule them with an iron scepter.” He treads the winepress of the fury of the wrath of God Almighty. 16 On his robe and on his thigh he has this name written: KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS.

    Revelation 19:20-21 But the beast was captured, and with it the false prophet who had performed the signs on its behalf. With these signs he had deluded those who had received the mark of the beast and worshiped its image. The two of them were thrown alive into the fiery lake of burning sulfur. 21 The rest were killed with the sword coming out of the mouth of the rider on the horse, and all the birds gorged themselves on their flesh.

    Jesus’ cause to kill millions of people? The Wrath of God.

  20. Hey Will Wright, do you think that Mary Poppins and Gandhi just might have had a Plan X or something?

  21. its been a while since visiting this blog – pretty heavy discussion.

    back to the picture of gandhi, great guy but just read a comment in a book that made me laugh:

    mahatma gandhi, as you know, walked barefoot most of the time, which produced an impressive set of calluses on his feet, he also ate very little, which made him rather frail and, with his odd diet, he suffered from bad breath. this made him a super calloused fragile mystic hexed by halitosis.

    do you think gandhi would fight back over that comment???

  22. I basically agree with you all to a point.
    But I have become very curious about the premises of your argument, to the point where I will have to do some further study, for my own benefit as well as others if there is anyone interested. I discern there is something amiss with the whole thing and when I find out I will blog it.

    I am going away now. I will not be talking any more on this point.

  23. Yes I know the story well, and I have had lunch with Elisabeth’s brother, can’t remember his name off hand. We were at a conference together in Chiang Mai.

    Can someone answer my question about the painting?

  24. That’s your choice, Rodney, but I like to think of how Jim Elliot answered his son when faced with a similar situation. Elliot was a missionary to Ecuador back in the 1950s, along with Nate Saint, Roger Youderian, Pete Fleming and Ed McCully. Jim Elliot was about to leave his camp and his family to meet with some indigenous people (the Aucas), who were known to kill any stranger who came into their territory. Elliot’s son asked him why he wasn’t taking his gun with him, and Elliot answered something like this, “I’d rather lose my life sharing the love of God with these people, than defend myself, kill any of them and send them to an eternity without Christ. At least I would go to Heaven, whereas they would suffer eternally in Hell.”

    The result was that he was killed. WOW! We could say that he was an utter failure and should have defended himself, but most of the Auca tribe – and many others since – have come to Jesus because of his sacrifice. Now there’s someone who I think emulates Jesus.

  25. The US military/government thrives on their “collateral damage” thinking. There are well over 100,000 dead Iraqi civilians, not to mention 4500 of our own sons and daughters. And all for WMD’s that did not exist. All for a notch in W’s belt. So he could display Sadaam’s gun as a trophy.

    And speaking of ungodly, Hiroshima and Nagasaki, that show of American might or shall we say overkill, reverberates across generations and decades and will continue to do so over centuries affecting innocent people. So that sounds like God to you? Wow.

    It is you who has his head in the sand Rodney – you who filters through a dogma and a dysfunctional one at that.

  26. Jesus did not lead a rebellion against Rome because that was not His mission. He came for the lost sheep of the House of Israel. He came to seek and to save the lost. Besides, they had no chance of standing against Rome, as they found out in AD70 when Jerusalem was destroyed.

    I said we should take out the nuclear sites, not kill people.
    So you are saying that if we don’t deal with the evil empire God will kill them later. Just let God do it. OK, I can go along with that. But if anyone tries to kill my wife, I will do everything I can to stop them.

  27. Rodney, all I can say is that I try to follow Jesus according to how He lived. Can you tell me why Jesus didn’t “defend the innocent” and lead a rebellion against Rome, one of the most repressive, evil empires that has ever existed? Jesus never even spoke out against Rome, let alone tried to overthrow it or stop it from hurting the innocent, because He knew that His weapons on this earth were not carnal. You continue to make the case for “justifiable war,” and I emphatically disagree. If an evil empire desires to enslave and kill people, they will pay later for their sin. I have no right to kill others – or promote and support those kinds of military efforts – in some kind of convoluted way of “protecting others.”

    It’s not right to kill, plain and simple. You can justify it and rationalize it all you want, but you have not yet shared even ONE scripture that backs up your doctrine of justifiable war, but I have, and so have Mike and Kate and Sophie. I invite others to share their views in this open forum.

    You can’t tell me that, “The US armed forces have weapons which are able to neutralize nuclear plants. They are not interested in killing the innocent (maybe some are, but generally speaking they are not)” and then say that innocent people will not die as a result of those actions. I choose to believe that “collateral damage” is not acceptable, and I challenge you to justify it with the Word of God, not your rationalizations.

  28. By the way, I really love the foot washing painting on the website. Do you know where I can get a print?
    We sometimes did foot washing in China. The tribal people would wail and cry out with tears because nobody had ever touched them. And the feet are the filthiest part of the body. This was an overwhelming blessing to them, and you could almost say it was a life changing experience for them, and for us, too!

  29. Dennis, what you have said is all very fine, but I do not approve of innocent people being killed. But what were the alternatives? Can you honestly tell me that you have really thought about this?
    I love Jesus, I love peace. I hate killing. I am all those things, but you are filtering everything through a dogma you have which is “peace at any price”.
    So I will ask the above question again a different way. Would it have been better to allow the Japanese to do whatever they wanted, and hold to your argument that we should not kill even to defend the innocent?
    You can say I am deceived but you are unable to answer any of my questions: When Iran gets nukes, you would be ok if they nuked your town. Come on, give me an honest answer. and if you are not ok with it, why would you not try to stop them? So who is the one with his head in the sand?
    Being “redeemed from the law of sin and death” means that if we follow Jesus, He has cleansed us from sin, and the scripture that says, “the wages of sin is death”, no longer applies. This scripture has nothing to do with killing whatsoever. You have taken it out of context.
    I wish you would stop thinking I am a murderer just because I have thought through something and have come to a conclusion that doesn’t happen to agree with yours.
    Also you said that I approve of bombing innocent civilians in Iran. The US armed forces have weapons which are able to neutralize nuclear plants. They are not interested in killing the innocent (maybe some are, but generally speaking they are not). So I don’t understand what your gripe is with what I said.
    What’s the point of having a blog where you all agree with each other?

  30. Rodney, You say: “Let us think about what would have happened if the US had not bombed Hiroshima and Nagasaki. Let us think about the several million extra people who would have been murdered by the Japanese.”

    Are you saying that we were obligated to murder hundreds of thousands of innocent people (almost ALL civilians) in order to stop what the Japanese army MAY have done? How can you say that God would approve of such evil? I just don’t get it, and it’s precisely because I AM a lover of God and Peace and Love that I can say that. You need to turn your heart and your head around 180 degrees and see the Truth of God’s Word. We don’t live under the Laws of the Old Testament anymore, Rodney – we’ve been redeemed from the law of sin and death. That’s right, we’ve been redeemed from DEATH, whether it’s wrought by someone else, OR OUR OWN HAND. Jesus came to set us free from death, and it’s people like you who would bomb the people of Iran (mostly innocent civilians again) and justify it as some kind of act of mercy.

    Totally ridiculous and the worst kind of evil, I say, especially because you would do it in the name of God and justice. You are deceived.

  31. Why oh why must it be this way
    Before you can read me you gotta
    Learn how to see me, I said
    Free your mind and the rest will follow
    Be color blind, don’t be so shallow
    Free your mind and the rest will follow
    Be color blind, don’t be so shallow

  32. Sophie, I regard your comments as hate speech against evangelical Christians. I thought you were committed to not hating people?

  33. Yes, I agree, free your mind and think.
    Let us think about what would have happened if the US had not bombed Hiroshima and Nagasaki. Let us think about the several million extra people who would have been murdered by the Japanese.
    And while we are thinking, let us think about the innocent Jews in Israel who will be killed by Ahmadinejad. We have seen and heard his threats on TV. Nobody is making this stuff up.
    Also let us remember the millions of Americans who will perish when they get nuked, Sophie, and Dennis – your family, your neighbors – all innocent people.
    And while you are thinking, ask yourself what spirit you are of when you (mistakenly) criticize God’s church.

  34. Amen to that Sophie

  35. I agree Dennis – Free your mind and think – And get ready for the next barrage of reasons for war. The governments of “the free world”, backed by many speaking for the Evangelical Church have already planted “just cause” in your brains for bombing Iran, or defending those who do. Do your homework, people. Look back at the history of Iran and how many years its people have suffered unimaginable repression, first under the U.S. and NATO backed shahs and then under the regime of the religious mullahs. Is there anyone out there who reads, examines and educates themselves regarding the past and current problems our world faces? Let’s get out of our pews, T.V. news and Facebook and be used as a force for good to all men. Free your mind and think………

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